tv Charlie Rose PBS September 27, 2010 12:30pm-1:30pm EDT
>> rose: welcome to our program. tonight eric schmid, the c.e.o. of google. >> social networking is important and facebook is a consequence and very impressive company. and social information will be used by google and by others, i should add, to make the quality of the results, the quality of the experience that much better. the pore we foe about what your friends do with your permission, and i need to say that about 500 times, we can actually use that to improve the experience you have of getting information that you care about. in our case what we're actually do something building social information into all of our products. so it won't be a social network the way people think of facebook but rather social information about who your friends are, people that you interact with. and we have various ways in which we will be collecting that information. >> we continue with the film wall street money never sleeps with the director all i ver stone and two of the jars, josh brolin and shia
labeouf. >> the 2 o 008 market is more difficult to understand with credit default swaps and insurance and all that stuff. but we made it a background. that's the way we treated it. we treated the crisis, it's all there. you parallel it. but we kept our eye on the foreground which is these six characters that are swimming around in the new york shark tank. >> my character is the demonic, you know, antagonist of our world. not of just even this small world but he's the one that basically creates. and instigates this massive fall if the world, in our country first and then in the world. you know. i just, he's this guy who's basically a c.e.o. of what would be a goldman sachs. and he's the great manipulater. he's the great carnivore. >> oliver expects a lot, you know. and i wanted to deliver and all the doors were open to me because of the success of the first movie. i think i was allotted opportunities charlesie wasn't because of the success and legacy of the first moveie. everybody wanted to help out. i would show up, it's
captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: eric schmidst is here, the c.e.o. and chairman of google, the company seems everywhere. if you are looking for information, chances are you might google it. in search the company commands 65% of the u.s. market. then there's google news, google earth, googel maps and more. but as the company has grown bigger, it has also attracted more regulatory scrutiny over its market dominance. all the data google has about us also led to concerns about privacy. mean while the tech giant is pushing ahead in new avenues it is placing big bets on
mobile where it's android operating system has gained market traction. it is investing in social networking with facebook is dominant. later this area it will launch google tv which will bring the web to vt screens. i'm pleased to have my friend eric schmidst back on this program. welcome. >> thank you very much, charlesie. >> so you are here in new york for the clinton initiative where you spoke of, where google today and how does it see the future. >> well, of course google is first and foremost a search company as you said. but we foresee sort of a broadening, if you will, of a mission to really about information that you care about. information that you need right now. and so historically what you would do is you would just type in a query and out would type the answer and it would come back really fast. but there is up an overwhelming amount of information now. we can can also search for things even without text. we can search where you are. we can search with google goggles and take pictures and see what are you looking at if you take a picture of your camera. to all of these mean a much
broader opportunity for search and bringing the information that you need. one way to think about this is we are trying to make people better people. literally give them better ideas, better augmenting their experience. think of it as augmented humanity. think of it as trying to get the computer to help us at the things we are not very good at and have us help the computer on the things they are not very good at. computers. of course, remember everything. so now it is so overwhelming you need a search engine to keep track. >> rose: so how do you see the challenge from facebook and social networking. >> well, social networking is important and facebook is a consequently and very impressive company. and social information will be used by google and by others, i should add, to make the quality of the results, the quality of the experience that much better. the more we know about what your friend does with your permission, and i need to say that about 500 times, we can actually use that to improve the experience you have of getting manufacturing that you care about. in our case what we are actually do something building social information
into all of our products. so it won't be a social network the way people think of facebook but rather social information about who your friends are, people that you interact with. and we va various ways in which we will be collecting that information. >> so what worries you most about the challenge from facebook in the marketplace. >> well, i think at the moment, at the marketplace, the two companies coexist quite well. we've studied very carefully the impact of facebook. and facebook users use google more so we love facebook for that reason. >> and then there's apple. you used to serve on the apple board. >> yes. >> you no longer serve on the apple board. are you in the cell phone business, in the mobile business. it is said, it is said that steve jobs got very up set with you, his friend, because he said i didn't go into the search engine business, why are they going into my business. >> well, that is a quote from steve. it's important to know that steve is one of the greatest
c.e.o.s that's ever lived. and what he has done with apple is phenomenal. and apple is a company that we both partner with and compete with. we do a search deal with them, recently extended. and we are doing all sorts of things in maps and things like that. so the sum of all of this including the fact that they've now opened up their platform means that the two large corporations, both of which are important, both of which i care a lot about, i think will coexist pretty well. in our case, android was around earlier than the iphone. >> rose: the operating system was around. >> that's correct. >> rose: but when you looked at-- look at android today. how does it compete with iphone. >> well. >> rose: because of the application gap that exists. >> well, the iphone established a whole new category called the smart phone category. many people have come in to compete. the apple model is a closed model. same hardware, same software, same application. it's so-called vertical stack, same stores, so
forth. all the other vendors, and there are many, want an alternative to that. and apple is to the going to give it to them. along comes this android operating system that google had been working on very hard which is a complete turnkey solution with similar capabilities. the ability to do, you know, a camera phone and do proper searches and a powerful browser, using the same browser as the iphone and same technology that we collaborate with apple on. most importantly the software that we made available we make available for free. so all of a sudan droid becomes very popular with companies like motorola, lg, htc and so forth and so on. we to you have more than 200,000 of these phones being turned on every day. there are 90 different models in 59 countries, with 39 different variance. so it's a very, very large phenomenon and growing very, very quickly. so we think android will end up being one of the very small number of very, very successful mobile devices. >> rose: where is the world of applications going. >> there are two different models at the poment.
actually there a third model which we have forgotten about which is the pc model. remember the old applications you would buy and buy in the store. so one seems to want to talk about that before. there is the model that google has pushed for for a long time which are called open web application. there is another model that apple is pushing which are these i pad application. and the ipad applications are beautiful but high leigh restrictive. they are written in a specific programming language, they are not web application. so eventually over the next few years it should be possible, using web technology, so-called open technologies which google and others are promoting to build applications as powerful as those on the ipad but do them on the web which means they will run every year. >> rose: how far off is that. >> the technology is there now and people are developing it. and the core part of the android strategy is to be a platform for such powerful web 57s. ultimately in the internet openness has always won. i can to the imagine that the current competitive environment would reverse that judgement. >> rose: but at the same time, people are saying, for example, and e-commerce, it is more likely are you going to be served by the opinions
of ten friends than are you a google search. >> well, so far the evidence is that google search is doing very well. so if that's the future, we'll see. we can certainly make our advertising much more effective to the degree we have more information about who your friends are and again with your permission, we can tie that in. the fact of the matter is there is to the going to be a single solution here. electronic commerce is such a large space that there will be many variants there are, for example, very successful rating sites that are independent of google and facebook, they are going to work with everybody. >> rose: back to the mobile architecture. where is it going to be five years from now. >> the scariest thing is to look at the moore's law progression of mobile phones to understand how fast this is going. so remember in five years things are ten times faster or ten times cheaper. today a good powerful touch-screen phone costs about $150. with subsidys it can get down to i small number of dollars. in five years that phone can be essentially given away in third world and developing
countries. that means we can sell billions of them with these very low cost plans. the higher end phones, of course, will be approaching supercomputers. what is interesting about this architecture that all of us are building is it is really just not the phone it is also the phone connected to the network which is connected to all the computers. so an example when we do voice translation, we will do german to english, english to german, you talk into your phone, it digitizes the voice, sends it to a thousand computers in some other country, most likely, converts them to text, translates the exinto the other language, and then puts it through a speech synthesizer so you hear it back in the other language that is to me, this science fiction. >> rose: it stunning. >> and the fact that this is done in about a third of a second and we think that that is a slow time tells you ouch times have changed. one of the things about google is that we think fast matters. we just released a product called google instant which is very fast search. people said like why did you do this, you spent a fortune to do this by the way. well, a few seconds across a billion people is an
enormous amount of time. we really do believe that if we can get the answer to you more quickly, you can actually either use us more, obviously, or maybe you can use the rest of your life to do the things you really care about. computers should ultimately be in the service of us, not the other way around. if computers can help you manage this enormous explosion information, and by the way you were mentioning social networks, think about the user generated content, the youtube videos. i can never figure out what to watch, where to read, where to go, what to do. so the computer could give me some advice that would be a huge improvement. >> rose: what is the smartest thing you've learned about searches in the last, say, year. >> the biggest single change, i think, has been the shift from sin tax to symantec-- si pan techs. the ability to go from peening. when i search what is the weather in loss gattos what i am really asking is whud should a wear a rain coat or water the plants. our idea is that we can begin to understand your intent when you do a search like that. again, if you are logged in and you give us permission to do this kind of a search,
we can actually help understand what you really, what problem you really are trying to solve. and we do that using some very, very advanced mathematical techniques call artificial intelligence. because there are thousands of computers doing this all at the same time they can give us hints and estimates that may improve the performance. and again the more we foe about where are you and who are you, the more likely we can understand the context of the question that you asked. it's very important to understand that some people don't want to give us that information which is fine, in which case we have anonymous searches where you are just a generic search and we will dot best we can. but over time as these devices become more personal it should become much more of a buddy in a genuine sound saver, remembers what you read, it suggests things that are new or different that disagree with what you read before and so forth. but true personal digital a 'tis-- assistance that really understands what you care about. >> you bought acquired youtube. >> yes. >> rose: for many years people assumed it was a huge cost item for you.
now hear it may be close to making a profit. and the reason is because are you beginning to get some advertising. and you are getting advertising because you have become to create content. that's not user generated. is that right? >> yes, that's right. we have more than 12 billion views of youtube a day, with a b. it's a staggering number. think about the amount of time that is being consumed or wasted by all of this content. there are 24 hours of youtube video uploaded every minute. the explosion in what people want to talk about, to portray themselves, to tell a story. the kind of information that you can find, you can learn to do anything, any kind of lesson, any kind of educational program in any language there are many forms of entertainment and they are indeed unique youtube stars that are now emerging from this phenomenon it all very positive. the revenue side is equalityly interesting. historically we assumed it would be very difficult to get revenue because it is so
hard to find the high quality, if you will, professional productions. but the algorithms have gotten better we can service them much more quickly. if we know you care about a particular show we can show that to you more often. so that, if surface the right video, pick the right video and tiing that to advertising revenue looks like it will be a very successful business for us. in the history of this is written, it looks like youtube we got cheap. >> rose: what did you pay. >> $1.6 a billion. please don't remind me. >> rose: the question of netflix and google,. >> a good partner. netflix has done a particularly good job of navigating the, if you l the hollywood lawyers. because this whole group of people. >> rose: that is exactly what it is about. >> it is fundamentally a rights pingt issue. and the deals are incredibly complicated. and the team at netflix figured out a way to get a universally inexpensive, available, not just physical dvds but also streeming. we are partnering with them
in a number of things including a partner that we announce called google tv where again you can see net flix stuff on the screen. >> what else is google tv. >> google tv is a new way of thinking about your television. it starts with you purchased a television. you go to the store. you buy a television and you turn it on and you see television. press a button, boom, are you in a browser. when are you in that browser you got a normal browser. in fact you've got a full browser. by the way, i need to mention there is no separate computer here. we are using the computer that is already in your television. pretty interesting. so we are in the browser. >> rose: this is because you are making new television. >> but they already had that chip in that. >> really. >> because these high end televisions have a pretty powerful product it wasn't doing very much. we managed to take the android operating system and the chrome browser, chrome is something that, on the order of 70 million and growing very quickly people are use. and embed that into these televisions. in the television now all of a sudden you have a full browser. never happened before with. that full browser you can do all the normal internet
things, may games, have a good time. watch youtube. you can watch youtube just like normal television. >> and the quality of the picture is. >> is as high as the quality of the media submitted which means hd quality if you have it. so then we say do a search, guess what, all those tv shows are now intermigueled with the you tube andover information and you can switch back and forth. you can do picture in picture. pretty interesting. now i can finally integrate the web and television together. and it's one more thing. because it's android, because it is android encontrolled qu write programs that come in the browser and we have noed where what people are going to do with the televisions. but we may, in fact, get to the point where people start watching -- >> you have to know how to write codeness. >> but programmers will do this and there will be a large market. >> rose: your grounding is technology, so is serg a, and so is larry, and so is so many other people at google, engineers and computer scientists. can you keep up in that or
you spend all of your time just trying to be a good c.e.o.. >> i try to keep up. >> rose: not write code but. >> it's overwhelming the rate at which technology is poving forward. and the solution, of course s to have very, very smart people who keep you educated and i think all of the leaders in technology have to do that. you just can't personally do it all. >> how do you and sergei and larry divide up the responsibilities. >> we worked together for so long it seems natural. typically larry and sergei are ahead of me. they are always working on soming -- --. >> they are always ahead. they have already had the review with the engineer by the time i ask for it. and that's a good rule for them. they are in there early. they are shaping the outcomesing saying what they like and don't like. googem television for google tv, for example, they met with the initial team. they didn't like what was done. they said change it here, change it there. they refactored it. by the time i saw the product i said great, and that is the product you see today. the early work was the hard part. >> they worked out the best product before it gets to your desk. >> much earlier than i do. and so my role is largely
organizational, let's keep it together. let's stay focused. large corporation, there are so many things going on. you just try to keep it going. >> i know you want to help me understand this but tell me what the division was within google over the china question. >> well, historically larry and sergei and i always debate everything. and within the company, there was always a question as to whether we should enter china. and sergei has always been concerned. >> rose: because of his own personal. >> because of his personal experience but also it a values questionment and we all agree that legitimate people can disagree over those. so we agreed to enter china roughly five years ago. with an assumption that our entry into china would make things better. unfortunately p in the last five years that did not occur. >> rose: you got there, you could change the attitude towards-- towards privacy. >> this is the argument about whether you empower, it's the trade-off of dealing with the government and the censorship laws which we do not care for and the benefit of empowering the chinese citizen which we
obviously want to do. it is really the chinese citizen and the role of th government. >> what have you learned since you've been there before we get to the question of where you are now. >> i think the thing that you learn about china is one, it's a very large and fast-growing country. the chinese citizens are very, very clever, very creative and the chinese government is very, very powerful. >> so. >> so do you believe you didn't change them by being there? >> i think the evidence is clear that we, that our entry did not alter their censorship policies whatsoever. >> and did you come back on your hands and knees, basically, saying okay, we realize that you are going to have it your way but -- >> that negotiating doesn't work with the chinese. >> rose: what works with them? >> the chinese are very cleaver and they understand power and they understand-- and they are very, very organized about what they need as a country. >> so what do they need as a country. >> they would argue technology but they are very, very serious about enforcing these laws that we don't like and hence-- . >> rose: what is behind it, do you think?
>> i think many people can imagine it's a single party country. there is a concern over the history of culture rv last and the chaos that occurred at the time. perhaps this confusionism in some variant, we don't really know. but the fact of the mat certificate it real. >> rose: did anybody among those people that you were negotiating with sit down and say, are you a smart man. i realize you would have made billions of dollars and your company, man, we admire here in china. but do you understand if you leave here, the size of the market you are leaving, did they make that argument to you? >> not directly but indirectly. but we understood that the decision we made was a principles decision, not a business decision. the business decision would be to remain in china. >> rose: so what happened to that principles. >> the principles that we articulated is there are things google does not want to be subject to. the act of censorship that was, that is the law was something we just were uncomfortable with. >> rose: but where does it
stand now? >> well, they are still doing and as a result we have moved to hong kong. and hong kong is not subject to that law because it's, remember it's one country, two systems so by moving to hong kong, the censorship is done by the chinese government through something called the great firewall of china which exists between hong kong and the mainland. in that, it forces them, if you will, to implement their policies as opposed to us. >> rose: is that working for you as an alternative. >> the effect is it blunts our success in china. and if fact it was important for us to get this business licence which we were able to get renewed, thank goodness otherwise we wouldn't be able to operate in china as a whole. but there is no question that it has slowed down our penetration to the chinese market. as with you would imagine, there was also a lot of negative press. >> and how did that go in terms of, it made people not necessarily want to use google search? >> i am sure it was to the good for google's brand. >> it already had a majority share. and-- it was probably the significant vickar here. >> rose: because it wouldn't
go down. >> we are, our objective is to remain in china under the rules that we can abide by. >> rose: as long as are you not allowing them to hack into the people who use your search. >> that's correct. >> rose: that's the principal you are-- adhering. and nothing has changed about that. >> that's correct. and i think-- . >> rose: or is likely to change. >> i think the situation stable. i want to make it clear, however, that the chinese government can arbitrarily change this outcome at any time. so if they wish to make our lives much more difficult in mainland china it is easy for them to do so technologically. >> rose: so a businessperson comes to you and says what are the lessons from your chinese experience, what do you say? >> the fundamental lesson is that google is a company run under a different set of principless than a lot of other businesses and we're happy with that decision. >> rose: privacy today, the other big issue for you to think about. where are we? >> privacy turns out to be very, very important. and people care an awful lot about privacy. and yet there is an enormous amount of information that personal that either they are putting on which they will probably come to their
regret later in their lives, or stuff about them that they can't seem to control. so the google position has been that we want to give you as much control over your privacy as we can. we have for example with after a certain number of months in this case 18, the logs of your searchs are anonymous, they are deleted in such a way that they can't be tracked back to you, that is an important privacy step. we are working on additional privacy tools that would allow for example to control what people can see about what you are doing and literally a privacy monitor and a privacy page and so forth. so that you can decide. ultimately the solution to privacy will be to let people make their own decisions. there are trade-offs in privacy and they are subtle. so it is important we let people make those trade-offs. i should also say that there is a lot of disagreement among governments about privacy. and governments have all sorts of different rules. typical example would be in london if are you walking down the street are you undoubtedly on a camera. >> rose: right. >> whereas in the united states that would the no be acceptable culturally and these are two countries
similar to one another. so the fact of the mat certificate that you will see different privacy laws in different countries. and europeans tend to have the strictest privacy laws and so i think all of us will probably ultimately come up with strategies that are a derivative of the european ones. >> rose: the other thing you hear when they talk about google when you look at your market share is monopoly. where do you stand? what is-- is there some sense on your part that the justice department is taking a serious look at google. >> we certainly hope not. because we don't agree with the assertion. we are literally one click away from our competitors. and we have a primary-- . >> pirro: that is what you always say. >> let me describe this competitor that we have. we have a competitor, owned by microsoft called binge which is a company-- . >> rose: gaining market share. >> it is doing well and that competitor, by the way, has a parent company that has more cash than we do. more engineers. a storyed reputation of technology innovation. and was formerly convicted of monopoly itself. in a federal court. so i think from our perspective, these charges just don't make any sense.
>> rose: you think they are pushing the charges, you think they are down there leaning on justice saying why don't you go look at google. >> i don't know. i don't know. we have evidence-- . >> rose: how about-- dow suspect it. >> we evidence that our competitors including microsoft have funded a set of think tanks, if you will, to say things which fundamentally not true. and whatever we discuss that, we think the solution is transparency so we publish. >> rose: what is it that they are saying is to the true. >> all sorts of things, terms like search neutrality which doesn't really exist. all sorts of things like that. >> rose: is there irony hear that now are you running-- are you now running google. >> during the investigation of microsoft, one of the people who was called on to testify was one-- you. >> that's right. the good flus is having some of experience with it. i know what we were not doing that they were doing at the time. you don't have the kind of lock-in as google that you did in the earlier
situations. so in particular google has a policy that if you have personal information with google and you don't like us, which does occur occasionally, you can take your data with with you. we have, in fact, a team in aptly known as the data liberation front whose sole job is to get the data out and give it to you. >> rose: the future, the united states. i mean you are a global company, clearly. questions have been raised about the united states, not in a zero sum gain but the united states as an innovative, creative technology leading country. tell me where you see that and what are the the factors at work because are you on an economic advisory board that gives recommendations to the president of the united states. >> one of the great assets of america are the world's best research universities. and i'm part of a task force that has looked very carefully and thoroughly as to how can we get, for example, manufacturing jobs back to america. >> rose: what kind of manufacturing jobs. >> so-called advance
manufacturing jobs there are new surfaces, nanotechnologies. amazing, amazing new things that are coming out of the labs. so you listen to the folks who invented this and you ask them what the problems they have are. and they are all fundamentally about translation. they take the product in the lab and they can't build, they can't get to the company. they can't get the capital. think can't get the licenses. they can't get the patents or what have you. >> rose: because. >> because there are barriers in their way. and you sit there and you say how can that be true in a capitalistic environment it very difficult to get funding right now. especially for at-risk funds. and we have competitors, countries like singapore and south korea and china, of course, which have dedicated technology programs precisely in this area which will compete with us in perhaps beat us at our own game by taking the technologies from, that we have invented and building those factories. >> rose: and governments that are willing to put whatever amounts of funding is necessary behind them. and in fact are prepared to make it a national goal. >> and in fact-- . >> rose: in terms of the creation of two great universities by 2050 or whatever. >> and the chinese are
particularly impressive and or scary in this regard. so for example, they will control 80 or 90% of the solar panels in the world, technology in-- invented in america there is a list of such things. so we have a problem of taking the ideas and the world-class research and making it into businesses in the united states. that is a problem to be solved. i am an optimist about america. i think that american, the american business model is so flexible and american entrepreneurs are so clever, our focus on exported industries and so forth is so good that we will get through this. we need to create advanced manufacturing and sophisticated intellectual jobs to generate the kind of taxes and wealth and so for and so on to pay the bills that the government wants us to pay. >> rose: and do you think this administration is doing all that it can do to -- to do that. >> as an advisor to the administration i'm certainly trying and i think everybody is trying. it is a very hard problem. >> rose: but also are you living in an economic environment we live with a kind of deficit we are facing. >> i think nobody wants to hear this, but the fact of the matter is there is a de
leveraging from the world's greatest property bubble takes five to seven years. and we're in that period now. and during that period it just takes that long. and again, the government can do some things to make it easier. it just takes the whole cycle has to occur. all of the great innovations are just beginning. all the implication of the technologies that we've discussed in mobile phones, in the networks and kinds of things we do. a lot of reasons to believe this will all ago set -- accelerate. >> rose: the existing thing is how many billions of people are on the planet without don't even know anything about it yet. there are all those possibilities. >> think about. >> think about a $5 billion person global market for american ideas, american brands, american goods. a much larger market than we serve today that is a market that will come. and remember the rise of the middle class especially in asia, they are going to love american goods. >> rose: why are the chinese going to want american cars rather than chinese cars. >> partly because of hollywood with. one of our great exports is american culture. and the american branding, the sense of importance, the sense of being a part of the
global conversation, even the charlie rose show i suspect, all of these, really do drive human behavior. in the same way that european luxury brands are very popular here in the united states. it's the same principles. people want to be part of a global conversation. and it is really true. >> rose: it really true now. and you can do telephone. and you can do in the way where the brands you develop and the products you deliver really can, on the market, tip to america in terms of the type of jobs and businesses that we can create. >> rose: the ipad is a phenomenon, tablets. it is a success. >> tablet, ipad is a great success in a leading product from apple. an shows the way for the many tablet manufacturers that are now entering the market wz are open operating system. >> open operating system, different prices and android tap let shall it -- tablets as well. the important thing is they showed that this tablet phenomenon shows there is a spot for a new device. and let me describe what that device is you turn it on, and it just works. it just works. are you not fiddling with with the keyboard. you are trying to get the
antenna running, the plug doesn't work and so forth. people in my industry forgot that space. the tablet is for such people. and that's for a lot of people. it is a device you can just turn on and it works. >> rose: steve jobs didn't forget that space and that is why he is a genius. >> to his credit, absolutely. >> rose: even though microsoft had the idea of trying to create some kind of tablet long before. the idea of a tablet was not a new idea. the idea of making it works with a new idea. >> there have been tablets for 20 years. and the key insight of this generation of tablets is that you will turn them on and you are not sitting there trying to get your e-mail to work, the apps just work. that will be true on the open web as well. >> rose: there are a lot of people that see tablets as the saviour for newspapers, magazines,. >> in newspapers and magazines, they are very excited about tablets, ipad in particular. and with ones that are coming later this year. because they have a predictable modernization model it a subscription. you take the subscription you get for the newspaper and you pay it to the vendor for your ipad or, they like
that. and furthermore the gross margins will be better because there is no physical goodsing you don't have to print the paper. the quality of the magazines is so beautiful. i think that's transitional one. the second transition which is what happened by the way with television, the original television was remember, radio televisions, radio stars using televisions to show the radio programs. a and then real television shows. then the next thing that will hab is you will have magazines that are real virtual experiences on these tablets that you cannot do if print. and that is when we will know that the industry has taken off. there will also by the way be significant advertising support approaches. and both i think will work very well. >> rose: when will we know that. >> you will see it over the next year. >> rose: well so pu rupert murdoch was right that the model will shift. >> the models are shifting. >> your commitment to free is no longer total. >> what we have said is we are going to give the publishers the choice of how to monetize. some publishers arc lot of the new ones will not go to subscribes, they will say the add thing works for us
and so forth. but my own prescription is that-- people who are is used used to a subscription model they will rush to this and we want to be part of that and make it possible. >> rose: so will it have to do the nature of content? >> i think in many ways it has to do the nature of the tradition. that people are used to paying for subscriptions for newspapers of a certain kind and so they will continue to pay that. but new on-line newspapers which have no tradition they don't have the choice of having a subscription so they will be just be advertising supported. similarly you so see new webs kinds of magazines that will become very popular. especially among new demographics, you can reach lots of new people and much more interactive. >> rose: is all this good for us? >> which am sure it is. and the reason is that we have never had all of the world's information available to us all the time. it means, of course, we have to have technologies and tools. we hope google will be one of the companies that provide that this generation, is incredibly comfortable communicating in a way that is different from the way i grew up. who am i to deny them that
choice. the most important thing to do is to work on fundamental education about deep reading. the only thing i ever concerned about with the web is the fact that it's all so fast and all so quick, we are all instant searchers and quick skaerns and read this paragraph and so fourth. every once in a while sit down and read a book t is an amazing experience. >> or spend an hour on a television show. >> thank you. >> rose: all i ver stone's 19897 film "wall street" can toward the glamor and greed of the 1980s. >> i am not a destroyer of companies. i am a liberater of them. the point is, ladies and gentlemen, that greed for lack of a better word, is good. greed is right. greed works. greed clarifies through and catches the essence of the
evolutionary spirit. greed in all of its forms, greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge, has marked the upward search of mankind and greed, you mark my words, will not only save the paper but that other malfunctioning corporation called the u.s.a.. >> rose: now more than two decades later the world of finance has been rocked by the worst financial crisis since the great depression. oliver stone returns to this world with his new film "wall street money never sleeps" "and here is a look at the trailer for the new film. paragraph. >> one silk hanker chief. one watch. one ring.
one gold money clip with no money in it. and one mobile phone . >> someone reminded me i once said greed is good. now it seems it's legal. >> no matter how much money you make, mr. gekko, will you never be rich. >> why don't you start calling me gordon. >> rose: joining me the film's director oliver stone, two-of-his stars josh brolin and shia labeouf.
i'm pleased to have them here at this table. welcome, great to see you. what was the challenge for you? >> to go back after 23 years into a world that was complex and pull it off again. which is more complex now than ever. the 2008 market pore difficult to understand with credit default swaps and insurance and all that stuff. but we made it a background that is the way we treated it. we treated the crisis, it's all there. you parallel it. but we kept our eye on the foreground which is these six characters that are swimming around in the new york shark tank. you know, mother and mother and son, shia's mother is susan sarandon, father and daughter and. >> rose: forgot to mention. >> michael douglas and kerry mulligan are the father daughter. and two larger-than-life psychopaths that are trying to track down shia. one of them is josh brolin who plays an evil banker, or bad banker. and-- maroon coat. >> and michael douglas is,
of course, after money again. he's out of prison but he is on the other side of the equation. this time he's broke. and he's on the outside looking in. he wants to be a player again. but he's torn because his daughter won't talk to him. he walks out of prison, no one is there to meet him it is a key moment. it a very heartbreaking moment for him. his daughter hates wall street. hates what he has done to him. and he has, through the course of the movie he has to find his balance between what he wants, really wants. >> rose: so when people walk out of the theatre having seen this, other than having told a good story, with skill, having having entertained them, what dow want them to come away with? >> i think those first words are important. if you can tell a good story i've done my job. i mean steve spielberg, the best storytellers is what we do. we are dram a tests. you are always looking for hidden meanings with me, charlie. my meeting,ing you can draw what you want for them. >> rose: i wonder how long it would take them to
reflect on a question. >> i feel certain ways about it but i feel like-- i am, you know, i didn't make a documentary. >> rose: you mentioned -- >> i didn't make a documentary but i think i have certain feelings which i can state to you. but they are not necessarily implicit in the film. they're there if you want them to be. if you parallel the 2008 crisis, yeah, the bank screwed up big time. central banks in this country. played a very dirty role in this. and in essence the gekko of the 1980s who was an illegal, inside trader, became the bank's of the 2008s. and that is what is interesting is that gekko's form of business was now legitimate. at one point gekko says greed is now legal. and i think that's what he means is the banks are doing what we used to do on a big scale. he was a little crook. they're huge crooks. >> rose: has anything about gekko in terms of how his morality or his ethics or his attitude about life changed other than the fact he has no money? >> yes, he's got a hearth.
>> there a sense of humility in the beginning. he's got a heart. >> but it fluctuates throughout the moveie. are you not sure exactly if it is real t if it is actually organic or cultivated in order to get something else he wants in order to get back on top. i think that is what is dramatic about it, is you are constantly questioning his motives which is what you did in the first moveie. and shia the fee an say he is a young investment banker. and had a leeman brothers bear stearns type term firm. >> rose: with a green instinct. >> with anin stink for green energy and he is trying to capitalize an alternate energy company using chinese money. and he's fiancee. he loves very much kerry mulligan who is guess what, the daughter of michael. now michael is torn about her because as we find out, i'm to the giving away too much, but he has a feud with her at the same time he wants her back in his life. she has reasons to hate him. and he has reasons to hate her. we'll find out more about that as the movie goes. >> rose: a and you don't
want me to disclose it opinions spoiler alert. >> rose: tell me more about the character you portray and just talking to you before we started, there was a sense that i would have understood this am coulding from josh because i know he is a day trader at one point in his life and maybe still. but not knowing how much you knew about wall street, the conversation we had before we started reflected some sense of -- >> yeah, i knew nothing at all. never been scholarly at all. it was sort of job requirement to be one whose acker and also he want a consultant. oliver expects a lot, you know. and i wanted to deliver and all the doors were open to me because of the success of the first movie. i think i was a allotted opportunities charlie wasn't because of the success and legacy of the first movie. everybody wanted to help out. i would show up, it is different for me to just go up to george soros and say high but when ol irstore-- oliver stone interviewss you it changes the wol dichotomy. so it really opened up for me. they would give me stock picks and i would introduce them to gordon gekko. so it was a really beautiful
time for me in my life. and really an eye opener. >> it is extremely smart. he's 24 years old and for somebody who hasn't had any kind of background like that, to be thrust into this world, and not only into the finance world and finance now unlike 19897 when is billions and billions of dollars, to be thrust into olt i ver stone world which is, you get it right. you don't have any, i mean it is, there a pressure there. and on top of that, you have to carry the whole film. yes, it is gekko. gekko is the iconic character but he has to carry the wol film. he's in every frame. >> rose: this is the first scene which is giving a pitch because he has this admiration for alternative energy and his company, the fusion company. here it is pts. >> a huge deep-sea exploration offer the coast of equatorial ginny, an oil field that has barely been touched. remember the stock is trading roughly 31% off the 52-week high. and it's part owned and funded by none other than guess who,-- schwars.
so they know they won't let anything too bad happen here. my suggestion is that we get aggressive, agreed? >> we all agree? >> i just don't think it is a rising that should be taken right now. >> wait. >> wait for what, your beam me up scottky hydrogen fusion deal. >> now are you talking something else, fusion korming, apples and oranges within the deal we already sank $50 million into mr. brain back. >> alternativeenergy is what biotech was 15 years ago, stan. you were young once, you know that the runs could be huge. >> we'll all be deed by the time your professor -- >> this coming from the guy who said google was a bubble. >> anyway. hydro offshore it is priced right for us to make 3 to 5 times on our money and better yet what we all love the most, big year end bonuses. >> rose: did you right this? you and-- ance alan loeb did the script with stwef enschiff. >> rose: oh, yes. >> i did some research and
background work. >> rose: tell me about your character, sir. >> i don't really understand my character. my character is the demonic, you know, an tag gist of our world. not of just even this small world but he's the one that basically creates and instigates this massive fall in the world, in our country first and then in the world. you know, i just, he's this guy who is basically a c.e.o. of what would be a goldman sacks. and he's the great manipulater. he is the great carnivore, he is the great consumer. he consumes everything. it is all about a cumulation for him. >> so there is also early on, wonderful performance, another one by frank-- who plays this sort of highly respected but very successful founder. which is somehow you get the impression part of the story line that comes out of bear stearns is the firm. >> right. >> rose: there are people shorting, they go down. >> an older man who has lost
touch with the market. and he doesn't know how to run money any more. that is what he says. he says he lost his up to. >> rose: and lost an appreciation for it too. >> doesn't understand in the world. >> rose: doesn't like it. >> he says losses are now profits. he doesn't understand the wol concept of insurance swaps. >> rose: all right. >> but then as you look f you look at evil eye he is old school also but there is a different mentality there. frank has a heart. >> rose: and ely, you know is funny when i first came to the set we started rehearsing. i came up with a certain character and i have been working with on it for a couple of month its and i got to the set and we started rehearsing. that seemed to be okay. then we got together with ely and i saw ely at 95 years old. and the absolute complete character that he was. and i brought him into my trailer. i said the character's completely wrong. i have to change the character. >> you remember that. >> and it's 15 minutes basically before we did the first scene. we completely changed the ago accident, changed the way he was. >> tell me what the character was before you came in. >> i don't know. he was some kind of, i don't know. he didn't have the gravitas
that he needed. >> request did you choose him? >> what was it about other than being a star. >> because he is an easter bunny. i love him. >> frankly -- >> shia is very shy in some ways. but he really, when he gets on a camera he belongs there, he whats been doing since he was what, four years old. >> ten. >> that's right, i read where he loved it. >> and apparently he was a stand-up comic. i heard this yesterday. i think if you look at the films he did, disturbia and the eagles eye and the first transformers were my favorites. you look in his eyes and will you see that you, you can read, the good actors you read through their eyes. i feel like this young man represents every man, every young man. every young dreamer and i think he's a good guy. although he has got a dark side too. as i said earlier run rumors on josh. >> that's pay back. >> and it is pay back but it is still illegal and he is also, he betrays his girlfriend to a certain degree, his fiancee. he betrays her twice.
it is an interesting. >> to feed his payback. >> well, he also, you could say he wants the money to come to that energy company. he wants, he is hungry. he is hungry. that is the problem. money makes you do things you don't want to do. on wall street. >> and everybody is susceptible. >> everybody is susceptible. >> everybody has a shade of gray. >> rose: you were encouraged to do this earlier than you did. you resisted making this. >> yeah. >> nothing had happened in. 2006 when steve schiff wrote the first script it was a celebration of hedge funders and the steve schwarczman kind of birthday parties rushing-- russian hedge funders on their yachts in monte carlo. there was even a submarine in the harbor in new york. that craziness. i didn't want to do that. when 2008 happened i think it gave it a framework of crime and punishment kind of definition. >> rose: . >> i think it was a warning, a major heart attack to the system. >> rose: you think could happen again? >> again t will happen again in another forum we won't recognize. but look, charlie in my
lifetime i have been through four of these bubbles. you have too. the vietnam bubble, the whole fighting that war, that created an inflation in our system that was the '60s i will never forget. i remember the 80s. pie father was a broker, he went through all this, the 80s was reagan era, there was a bubble there and a false sense of t happened in the 90s with it, and then it happened in 2,000 with real estate. it is impossible not to believe it's going to occur again. >> rose: how did you create your character. >> i was lucky. what we talked about before, and i didn't work, i wasn't a hedge funder or anything like that i sold my ranch, i took the profit. i started trading for myself in order to to the do movies for money. i didn't want to do certain jobs for money. so i actually was making money to put food on the table and all that. and through that, you know, on a very small scale i learned the have cac lear of wall street which enabled me to come here and meet with these billionaires and look like i knew what i was talking about it was intriguing to them. i talked with donald. i talked with dan loeb, i
talked with all these guise. and you start pulling little things, chainous did an interesting thing. every time he looked at me would shut his eyes and look away and open his eyes. he told me a lot about his life which i won't divulge but there are these little things, you know. and then you start working with these guise and you go wow, i remember that bit of behavior. but to me what is the more interesting thing is when your life becomes so myopic and becomes about money, what happens to family. what happens. and i through that on such a small scale but i felt it when which was downstairs. the kids were up, ready to go to school. they needed to eat and i was just going if i stay here i can make one more percent. so they can just wait 15 more minutes to eat. and i would here dad. and i would go wait, i will be right there and that was that on a small scale. on a global scale i can't even imagine. >> rose: here is the scene in which the two of you meet together. >> you are a real piece of work, brennan. are you giving the money because it a hustle it is all in-- that is why the oil
companies are safe, right? >> the mentor protege relationship is not emotional. over anything. i thought you might be a good addition to the team. am i mistaken. >> let me tell you something. are you not my mentor. whether you admit it or not your raid destroyed able and forced him to suicide so you may talk about moral hazard, you are the moral hazard. you are the worst kind of toxic debt the system is polluted with. >> is this a threat. >> absolutely. >> so disappointing. now i really saw so much in you, jacob. >> just look in the mirror first, see yourself, might scare you. so there you go, these two the dynamic of the tension between these two ca,. you get it right there. and then this is wonderful
motorcycle race. >> i love that motorcycle race. in the movie-- wins it but josh was really a biker and wanted to beat him so bad. they were so head-to-head. it is two generations, gekko is the 60-year-old. josh is in his 40s. and shia is in his 20s. for me as a director, i love that palate, three generations. and you can tell a big story. and you can tell, and new york is part of it too. i means that's the backdrop. new york is, i was born here. the city i love. >> rose: you capture the energy of the financial part of new york. >> oh, man. >> rose: and the social part of fork. >> the ball, everything. >> rose: what is he like to work with. what kind of director is he? is he like he is here when he comes to see me. >> i love him. he's my rock. >> rose: he's your rock. >> he was my rock the whole time. >> he was pie backbone, my support system. and shepherded me through all the prep and these are lions, tig errs and bears live i'm walking to go look at. it is lard to look -- so but
that scene especially is a funny story. me and brolin get out to the woods and i have been reading it a couple times. in the script he says, jake says to brennan, you know, you should look at yourself in the mirror and see yourself, it might scare you. and i remember, isn't that, you know, you kind of repeating yourself. can't we just say, you know s it okay, oliver if i say, you should look at yourself amed mirror it might scare you. and i remember saying it a couple times to oliver and he finally he turned around and said i like mirror, i wrote scar face, go [bleep] yourself. so it is heavy-handed -- >> so then when he says fu and he walks away in the actual movie, i don't know if that is to me f that is to you, if that's to the line. >> rose: oliver. >> no, that was great. >> i was playing a around. and josh found his character 15 minutes before he was on. i mean i think they exaggerate a little bit. >> i do, but you got to have something to talk about, right. >> they all love to tell
stories t is great. it is part of the mythology f it is printed, you have done that if it's true. >> rose: here is a scene between you and mike wlol is not at this table. and we wish him well on this day. but here is a scene between the two of you. >> i saw you on television the other night. you are quite the bear. you be careful, you know, your daughter's financial health is now in our hands. >> so it is, so it is. but your no-- subprime crap the way you keep buying it insurance swaps lately. i got to worry about my grandchildren's college education. >> you like insurance. >> what's not to like. easy selling crack to kids on a school playground. >> a credit default swap is the good idea. it's the execution that isn't. >> well, you know what they say, fools make money, bears page money, pigs, at the get slaughtered. >> i thought this was a charity event, gordon.
why don't you go find some. >> i tell you what, i will make you a deal. you stop telling lies about me, i'll stop telling the truth about you. >> thank you. great to see you all. >> thank you, charlie. >> great to see you. >> the movie is" wall street money never sleeps ". captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org